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nukes
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 Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2024 12:57 am Post subject: |
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I like Kate for most development. Make sure you install the dev plugins. (Gives you makefile integration and a terminal at the bottom). Don't really like the default colours (I'm more a gray on black sort of person) but they're easily fixed.
For Java I use Eclipse, and never really cared for kdevelop either.
As we're on the topic of listing them though, Visual Slickedit is powerful, but I didn't manage to get my work imported into it and building so I ditched it. Anjuta looked good for a while, but I don't know if it's still being developed, and the last releases I tried were pretty buggy (if they could be made to compile)
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masinick
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2024 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| nukes wrote: | I like Kate for most development. Make sure you install the dev plugins. (Gives you makefile integration and a terminal at the bottom). Don't really like the default colours (I'm more a gray on black sort of person) but they're easily fixed.
For Java I use Eclipse, and never really cared for kdevelop either.
As we're on the topic of listing them though, Visual Slickedit is powerful, but I didn't manage to get my work imported into it and building so I ditched it. Anjuta looked good for a while, but I don't know if it's still being developed, and the last releases I tried were pretty buggy (if they could be made to compile) |
Interesting! I rarely do development any more, and when I do, it is generally to write a small program or script for my own personal use. I have fooled around with Kate on occasion. It definitely offers a lot of features over either kedit or kwrite, the original KDE editors. To me, those editors are too heavy considering what little they give you - maybe some drag and drop functionality with the desktop, but not much else. For super lightweight stuff, either leafpad or mousepad are much lighter, and they still give you enough functionality for really simple GUI editing -about like Notepad.
Kate, on the other hand, like gedit, is still reasonable in size, yet it gives you quite a bit more. I would say that Kate is more extensible than gedit, but I'm sure you know a whole lot more about the extents to which you can customize it, but that IS one of the big factors I use to determine my own development platform. That's why GNU Emacs and Vim work for me, but if it were going to be Elvis, I'd just as soon use Vim or go to nano.
Speaking of that, lately I've had to do lots of really quick, delete one or two line edits for system administration. I don't consider nano much of an editor, but for a fast, simple console tool it is perfect for that kind of application. I get in, find the line, type in Ctrl K to kill a line, Ctrl X to Exit, y to say yes, I really do want to save, and Enter to confirm the name of the file, and I am DONE. I wouldn't use it for much more than that, but for such simple things, nano - and also vi, work well. With Vi, that same exercise is actually quicker:first find the line - 5G would immediately jump to line 5. Then dd deletes that line and ZZ saves and gets me right out. I often use Vi for those kinds of exercises for the same reason- fast and easy. In contrast, if I were using Leafpad, gedit, kate, or any GUI based editor I could select the stuff, press Ctrl X to cut, Ctrl S to save, and get out, but I have to take at least one hand off the keyboard. Not that I am a great touch typist - I'm not, but for such things, the Vi way kinda grows on ya.
Now that I've heard your recommendation on Kate I am going to have to use it for some Bash, Perl, and Python scripting. I do relatively small stuff, but it sounds like Kate will do a very good job with it, so I'll fool with it some more and see what I think.
Last thought: you mentioned the plugins with Kate. Have you ever heard of the Java based jedit text editor? It is one of the most extensible editors around, and over the past seven or eight years has really built a solid set of plugins. Unfortunately it rarely comes packaged with any systems, otherwise it would be used a LOT more. Like Kate, you can add plugins for all kinds of different activities - but only if you actually need and use them, so you create a tool to do what you want. http://www.jedit.org/ is where you can find it. The software does require a Java run time environment, but in essence, any platform where JRE is available, jedit can be made available as well, so that makes it a good cross platform tool. |
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Lord.DragonFly.of.Dawn
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Joined: 18 Jul 2024
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Location: South Portland, Maine, USA, Earth, Sol System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2024 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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I use codeblocks for some of my C programming ( great tool, but still in development so not as feature-full or well documented yet)) and i have used Eclipse for C developers (not worth it), although I prefer emacs mainly so i get a consistent editor when I'm in GUI and also in CLI (like SSH).
I must admit that I have been using emacs so much i find myself trying to use the keyboard shortcuts everywhere... Like editing a preference window and then trying to C-x C-s C-x C-c to save my changes and dismiss the window... -embarrassed-
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masinick
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Location: Concord, NH
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2024 9:57 pm Post subject: Yes! Another Emacs user! |
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| Lord.DragonFly.of.Dawn wrote: | I use codeblocks for some of my C programming ( great tool, but still in development so not as feature-full or well documented yet)) and i have used Eclipse for C developers (not worth it), although I prefer emacs mainly so i get a consistent editor when I'm in GUI and also in CLI (like SSH).
I must admit that I have been using emacs so much i find myself trying to use the keyboard shortcuts everywhere... Like editing a preference window and then trying to C-x C-s C-x C-c to save my changes and dismiss the window... -embarrassed- |
It seems to get harder and harder to find an Emacs user, especially a GNU Emacs user around these parts. I have GNU Emacs on every system, even my WORK laptop! I used it this week several times to edit pipe (|) separated list text files that I was modifying and later importing into a billing program, which uses an Oracle database.
I have not only GNU Emacs, but also Barry's Emacs on the work laptop. Barry's Emacs was originally written on the VAX/VMS operating system, taken from Gosling Emacs sources and maintained by a guy named Barry. I first used it on VMS at Digital years ago, but found it better by far than Notepad on PCs, but it has several features that make it easier, in some situations, to interact with Windows programs because the clipboard and the cut/move/paste key sequences match windows and the clipboard is the Windows clipboard rather than the X Window System clipboard. Barry's Emacs is handy for that kind of stuff, but for other stuff, I usually use the real McCoy, GNU Emacs.
I do use nano from time to time for trivial editing,and I actually use ed for short editing too. I have a situation where my wireless router incorrectly adds itself as a nameserver (I have a cheap Belkin G Wireless Router). It includes nameserver 192.168.2.1.
I created a file called remove, which contains:
then I have an alias called fix:
| Code: | | alias fix="sudo ed /etc/resolv.conf < ~/remove" |
I obviously have to make sure that ed is installed. Usually it is, but sometimes I have to grab it with apt-get, pull it from some repository or whatever. Ed is fine for stuff like that, but i wouldn't use it for much more than that. But you need to know ed in order to use sed, the streaming editor, which comes in handy once in a while. Perl uses syntax from sed and awk, so any Perl experts need to know the syntax anyway. I am not an expert, I just know where to find things, and sometimes get help if i get in over my head.
These days i am a project manager rather than a developer, but this week I have been doing quite a bit of data editing to and from spreadsheets. I worked with VHockey86, who wrote me a Python program to scrub a Web site for employee IDs when provided employee name. I had to do a bit of editing. Used Barry's Emacs for that on Windows XP because it had Python highlighting and syntax checking. I also used a bit of "Python IDLE".
As you can tell, while GNU Emacs is my every day editor, I try to get around in several different editors, both to have awareness and also, at times, different editors work appropriately for certain tasks. Ed was right for that small job, Barry's Emacs was good for working with Python and as a fast editor with good highlighting, clipboard support, but with a lot more keyboard shortcuts than you will ever find on any notepad editor.
Speaking of that, even notepad editors are handy for fast clipboard functions. Sometimes that is all you need.
The rest of the time, it is GNU Emacs for me. |
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Lord.DragonFly.of.Dawn
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masinick
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Joined: 03 Apr 2024
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Location: Concord, NH
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2024 3:06 am Post subject: Editor history |
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| Lord.DragonFly.of.Dawn wrote: | Emacs is a great tool. So is vi/vim.... although i never could figure out exactly how to use all the fancy features and most of the basic functions require constant reference to my cheatsheets...
Of course i once wrote a 1000 line basic game using "copy con" in DOS 6.22, I think it may have been for a bet.
There is a reason every single program for *nix exists. And that is because someone, somewhere, somewhen found it necessary or useful to write it. Or they just had WAY too much time on their hands...  |
A little of both, my friend, a little of both!
When TECO was around, that was a true geek tool if I've ever seen one! Ever run TECO? I have, on VAX/VMS. Once you remember what does what, it is extremely powerful. But Guy Steele and Richard Stallman went crazy with it. TECO was the Tape Editor and COrrector. Later it was renamed Text Editor and COrrector. Stallman and Steele stayed up nights and wrote Editor MACroS, hence the name Emacs. They were both at MIT and used ITS - itself a very odd time sharing OS of the day.
At Carnegie Mellon University in PA, James Gosling - know that name from anywhere? - wrote Gosling Emacs. It was that implementation of Emacs that Barry Scott acquired - probably through DECUS, the Digital Equipment Corporation User's Symposium. the code to that implementation.
Barry, or BArry, as he often signed his name in "the olden days", ported that code to a few different platforms. I use it from time to time even today.
I am a historian of computing, in case you didn't notice!
Ed was written after another editor, I think it may have been qed or something like that.
Ex was written by Bill Joy at University of California at Berkeley. He added on to it and it became Vi - much like Stallman, Steele, and Gosling did with Emacs. There were not a lot of editors back in those days.
Between the work of Joy, Gosling, Stallman, and Steele, most of the core editing concepts we use have been covered. The GUI based editors either cut down on the features in these editors or obscure their features, but I defy anyone to do more than you can do in either Vim or Emacs - both of which are incredibly extensible.
One editor that is not heard about a lot, but is quite powerful is an editor written in Java. It is called Jedit. Come to think of it, I don't have it installed, so I just went and grabbed it from Source Forge. |
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Lord.DragonFly.of.Dawn
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Location: South Portland, Maine, USA, Earth, Sol System
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2024 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I'll have to take a look at it... I'm always interested in new software.
| Code: | | sudo emerge -av jedit |
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JP
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2024 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| masinick wrote: |
That's why GNU Emacs and Vim work for me, but if it were going to be Elvis, I'd just as soon use Vim or go to nano.
Speaking of that, lately I've had to do lots of really quick, delete one or two line edits for system administration. I don't consider nano much of an editor, but for a fast, simple console tool it is perfect for that kind of application. I get in, find the line, type in Ctrl K to kill a line, Ctrl X to Exit, y to say yes, I really do want to save, and Enter to confirm the name of the file, and I am DONE. I wouldn't use it for much more than that, but for such simple things, nano - and also vi, work well. |
I use nano to edit ALL my files, I used to use kate, great editor, but it usually requires installing half of KDE just to get kate .... those Emacs/Vi/Vim editors are a bit too much in the way of memory hogs ...... MY memory  I can't remember all the commands .
@ masinick -- when I use nano to edit, I can do it in less moves than you demonstrated, I think ..... I edit, Ctrl O, Enter, Ctrl X, and I'm done .... although it's only one move less, there's less for my overtaxed memory to remember
@ Lord.DragonFly.of.Dawn -- I've been out of town, so I haven't seen your name ..... Welcome to USALUG .... greatest LUG around 
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bdquick
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2024 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Plus nano shows the commands at the bottom unlike vi which makes me remember them.
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masinick
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2024 2:20 am Post subject: |
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JP, the nano editing I referred to was wiping out a line, saving and exiting. Ctrl O writes a file and Ctrl X exits. What about the editing?
Ctrl K kills from the beginning to the end of a line. Ctrl O immediately prompts for the file you want to Output. Ctrl X exits, but if you have not written out a file yet i t prompts you to do so, and that is where the Y in the dialog I used came from. Ctrl O, Enter, then Ctrl X will work too, but I was describing my whole sequence, which I can do in seconds. Most other tasks in nano, a really simple editor, but lacking in heavy power, can get to be too much manual work, and that is where a good text editor comes in handy.
The same job in Vi or Vim is REALLY easy. In this particular editing scenario that I was describing, I was looking for an incorrectly added nameserver to my /etc/resolv.conf file. I have written an ed script that finds it, deletes it, prints all lines of the file so that I can see what is there, writes out the file and quits. You can do the same steps in Vi but you can also shorten them: You don't have to print because you can see the contents when using it interactively, so this gets it done in Vi or Vim:
/192
d
:x
There may be a way to combine the search pattern and the delete. This is quick enough - again, just seconds. ZZ works in addition to :x and avoids having to depress the shift key to get the : for an ex command - the ZZ is a Vi command to write out the current file and exit.
Without being in Vi mode or Viper-mode (and it would take more keystrokes to get there, it takes more keystrokes to do the same job in GNU Emacs:
Ctrl-s (Incremental search) command 192 (finds the nameserver line with the erroneous 192 in it.
Ctrl-a (beginning-of-line)
Ctrl-k (kill-to-end-of-line)
Ctrl-x Ctrl-c (Save-buffers-kill-emacs)
The default bindings in Emacs are not always the most rapid way to a solution. However, the combination of both a macro language AND a full blown string handling interpreter is. You can write entire programs and applications in Emacs Lisp, and people do just that. I have modified a program originally intended to provide decent emulation for an old VAX editor called EDT. I wrote an adaptation of the EDT emulator for a WPS keypad and in so doing, learned Emacs Lisp, but that was WAY back in the early nineties! These days I know the Emacs functionality well enough to either write macros, bind keys, or just use what is there, depending on my need.
Emacs is not necessarily the quickest for quick jobs - UNLESS you have it already running and set up with plenty of keystroke speed ups - using function keys to do the tasks you find yourself doing the most often. That is when it is really advantageous to use it. But you cannot possibly have such tools on some other system, nor do you have them when you first get going.
The simpler editors have value because of their simplicity, as long as people also recognize that simplicity limits their capabilities. The people who just use arrow keys, mouse clicks, and that kind of navigation do not benefit from the power of a Vi or an Emacs. Those who use Control and Escape key sequences freely can benefit greatly when they are programming or editing a lot of data, especially repetitively.
This past month I have had to do a lot of routine, fairly easy editing, but it has involved doing stuff like setting a date to a particular date (such as June 30) in 06302008 format. The thing about it is that in order to ensure that I am not incorrectly editing anything else, I have to find some common data to use for a search and replace string. With a good search and replace string, even Windows Notepad can handle the job - I tried it, and Notepad did surprisingly well in this case. Similarly, I had an entry at the end of every record of the file that had an easily recognizable end of record terminator. I could anchor on that ending terminator and use that to globally substitute with something else. Again, Emacs, Vi, and --- surprisingly enough, Notepad) could get the job done. I was able, in some cases, to chain both steps together in an Emacs macro, and by repeating the macro many times, I got a slight improvement in the time it took to do the job.
Emacs really excels in something called incremental search. Try it some time. Go into a file that has certain characters in various spots in the middle of the file. Type in Ctrl s, then every character you type after that will hone in on search results. If you are looking for Brian and you type Ctrl s then B, the editor leaps to the first B in the file, then when you type r, it leaps to the first sequence containing both B and r. You can easily see the value of this. You may get to what you are looking for with only a few characters entered. If you find what you want, with repeated Ctrl-s you can find additional instances.
That's enough editor chattering for now. You can readily see that I am an editor geek. |
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masinick
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2024 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| bdquick wrote: | | Plus nano shows the commands at the bottom unlike vi which makes me remember them. |
Nano is one of a handful of editors that do that. Of course, Vim and Emacs will give you an entire tutorial on how to use various features, but they are huge in size compared to nano.
levee is a chopped down implementation of Vi that actually fits within a very small footprint. Here are some comparisons:
| Code: | masinick@antiX:/usr/bin$ ls -l levee nvi vi nano /bin/nano
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 145508 2024-12-24 09:41 /bin/nano
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 46284 2024-06-24 22:54 levee
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2024-05-15 17:40 nano -> /bin/nano
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 351648 2024-07-11 05:33 nvi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2024-05-15 17:40 vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi
masinick@antiX:/usr/bin$ |
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Lord.DragonFly.of.Dawn
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JP
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2024 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| masinick wrote: | | JP, the nano editing I referred to was wiping out a line, saving and exiting. Ctrl O writes a file and Ctrl X exits. What about the editing? |
| JP wrote: | | .... I edit, Ctrl O, Enter, Ctrl X, and I'm done |
| masinick wrote: | Ctrl K kills from the beginning to the end of a line.
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I didn't know that until I read your first post .... I don't often kill a whole line, I just usually comment or uncomment lines, or add a word or two it seems. Still, it's a good shortcut to know about ...... I guess I need to look into nano a little bit more ..... there may be more shortcuts I can use. Since I don't program, or write scripts, nano seems to do all I need to have done for the present .... maybe one of these days ............ (seems like I have said something similar to that in years past " I'll never need to edit config files, so I don't need an editor " )
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masinick
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2024 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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If you are not frequently and repeatedly modifying files, then features like killing lines, searching and replacing files are not really time critical or important. In that case, just using what works safely and is easy to remember becomes the most important thing. Remember I've said many times that what works best for one is not necessarily best for all or even for the next person. I like what I like and I share the reasons why - still that need not be the same reason for everyone else - in extreme cases, maybe hardly anyone else.
What I try to do is explain how things work, where they come from and what functions they met. Sometimes the history helps determine if the solution is applicable. Other times the history steers people to something else. That is fine, open software is intended to have many variations and suit many different needs. |
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VHockey86
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2024 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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True, although I wouldn't put so much stock into "speed" for an IDE, at least for coding.
Generally when I'm programming I spend far more time reading, thinking, and debugging rather than actually writing or editing the source.
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